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Post by Scifishocks on Oct 4, 2007 1:27:21 GMT 1
As a bit of a student of true crime, I've been reading up on the Columbine Massacre, recently. I would like to invite the members to participate (if you wish) in what is, probably, our first very properly SERIOUS discussion on any issue. On April the 20th 1999, two American teens, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, decided to go into school bearing arms. As a result, 12 students and a teacher died and 24 were injured. After reading a fair bit on this, what has struck me is the pointlessness of this crime. Basically, as far as I can make out, these two students bought guns and decided to kill their classmates (and planned it to the letter). It was, it would seem, as simple as that. We can, I think, discount the 'A film/game/whatever' made me do it because the perpetrators went to great pains to discount any of this. They were happy to blame themselves. They simply decided that they would create havoc and die in the process. But why? I'd like to ask anyone who is interested to comment to read up on the case first... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacreFrom there, you can access copies of the websites that these people ran and other things like diaries and such. There is a LOT of information to ingest. Basically because they had a web presence. The lack of motive is what really interests (and kind of scares) me... ok, so apparently they were shunned by the general student body... people are people, after all. But what turns someone who doesn't quite 'fit in' into a killer? Would anyone like to comment or offer their thoughts? Btw. As you are ALL members, if anyone would rather we didn't discuss certain issues, you should PM me and I will look at it. I would like everyone to enjoy their time here. To my mind, though, if people visiting this site learn something whilst here, well that is (I think) so much the better. |
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Post by steann on Oct 4, 2007 2:03:52 GMT 1
it is scary to think that there is/was no motive...or are we led to believe that ?
sadly long before the internet came along mass killings happened over the years/centuries one only has to look back over the last five decades alone to see some of the atrocities that has happened mao's reign of terror , pol pot , ww 2 the holocaust , all senseless acts of violence
as with columbine
paranoia ?...maybe
what if...these two were bullied all their lives and just decided to get back at others by anymeans ?
did they make a sucide pact ?
did these two have some mental illness that was never detected ?
sadly there maybe more questions than answers
it’s also possible that these guys were born this way ( a killer ) and nothing could have stopped their personality from developing as it did
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Post by richardburton on Oct 4, 2007 10:02:09 GMT 1
It seems to me that they just grew more and more irritated with student life, teachers and their fellow students in particular. So what probably started as a 'what if' scenario ended in a detailed plan being formulated and then carried out. One of them probably said "Wouldn't it be great if..."
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Post by poyks on Oct 4, 2007 20:22:10 GMT 1
It's the precise planning that chills you, and through sheer hatred for society, and evidently a way of making a name for themselves. It's as though (to back up what rb said), the plan itself almost took them over, almost seeing as if there own will was not an issue anymore. No excuses though, it was an evil cold blooded crime, that unfortunately isn't exclusive, due to wierd copycats. Horrific.
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Post by Scifishocks on Oct 5, 2007 0:30:20 GMT 1
Whats also chilling is that no one around them had a clue and they had been planning the massacre for at least year.
Harris had a small armoury, collected over months, in his room in his parent's house. Their schoolmates had no clue either, although they were not popular kids. I gather there was a climate of bullying in the school and those two (amongst others) had been the butt of a lot of it.
It makes you think that anyone you know could be thinking exactly as they did and you might never know.
Some places have parts of the websites Harris maintained and they make for chilling reading.
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Post by steann on Oct 5, 2007 0:40:38 GMT 1
Whats also chilling is that no one around them had a clue and they had been planning the massacre for at least year. so true but as anyone making plans the less that know the better and it seems it was a need to know basis beteween them ( not trying to digress from the tiopic...but as with anyone making plans even for a surprise birthday party the last person to know is the intended birthday man/woman just to say plans are made all the time ) how did these two hook up together ? |
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Post by poyks on Oct 5, 2007 0:42:04 GMT 1
The bullying aspect is very interesting, as it's difficult to imagine the mental pressure that's built up over a period of time. The result was obviously ridiculously extreme, but it clearly added to the boiling pot.
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Post by steann on Oct 5, 2007 0:50:55 GMT 1
The bullying aspect is very interesting, as it's difficult to imagine the mental pressure that's built up over a period of time. The result was obviously ridiculously extreme, but it clearly added to the boiling pot. yes but on the other hand other people that have been bullied/abused in one way or another , have had sad lives , lived in terrible conditions , but have still gone on to become fine citizens who do very good things with their lives |
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Post by poyks on Oct 5, 2007 0:53:45 GMT 1
The bullying aspect is very interesting, as it's difficult to imagine the mental pressure that's built up over a period of time. The result was obviously ridiculously extreme, but it clearly added to the boiling pot. yes but on the other hand other people that have been bullied/abused in one way or another , have had sad lives , lived in terrible conditions , but have still gone on to become fine citizens who do very good things with their lives Exactly, and that makes me wonder where the fulcrum lies that tips people like that over the edge. |
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Post by steann on Oct 5, 2007 1:06:11 GMT 1
yes but on the other hand other people that have been bullied/abused in one way or another , have had sad lives , lived in terrible conditions , but have still gone on to become fine citizens who do very good things with their lives Exactly, and that makes me wonder where the fulcrum lies that tips people like that over the edge. you know i've been asking myself that very same question ,does something in the mind just snap just can't take anymore , or as the case of these two boys seek out revenge whatever the cost while reading the topic i asked myself a question...( am been totally honest here )..." what would make me want to kill someone "...answer if i was a parent of one those kid's who was hurt then i would want to hurt the perpetrator another parent may be more rational in saying let the courts deal with them |
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Post by poyks on Oct 5, 2007 1:10:10 GMT 1
Exactly, and that makes me wonder where the fulcrum lies that tips people like that over the edge. you know i've been asking myself that very same question ,does something in the mind just snap just can't take anymore , or as the case of these two boys seek out revenge whatever the cost while reading the topic i asked myself a question...( am been totally honest here )..." what would make me want to kill someone "...answer if i was a parent of one those kid's who was hurt then i would want to hurt the perpetrator another parent may be more rational in saying let the courts deal with them Agreed, if anyone did wrong to any of my kids to that degree, I would be willing to go against the word of the law to be rid of the wrong doer. God forbid. |
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Post by Scifishocks on Oct 5, 2007 1:18:39 GMT 1
By all accounts Harris was on anti-depressants and his doctor had become concerned with the mood swings he suffered. He was prescribed anothere drug but it was just a different brand. The drug was found in his system at the autopsy and it's thought possible that that contributed to his state of mind rather than make him better as it should have. Klebold, however, was not on any drugs. It's thought that he may have just been dominated by Harris and wanted to be like him.
On a docmentary I saw on You-tube, it was theorised that there was a 'perfect' storm' of events that led to them doing what they did. In other words, if any part of the lead up had turned out differently, the massacre would not have happened.
They didn't have specific targets. They wanted to kill the school. And that meant anyone that got in their way. They planned to blow it up, but the charges they used didn't go off.
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Post by poyks on Oct 5, 2007 1:24:03 GMT 1
Yep, it's like the true meaning of the word "accident" in a way; a series of very unlikely events that leads to a ridiculously further more unlikely conclusion. A bit like a lottery win several times in a row. It's not a reason for the outcome, but an important factor.
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Post by steann on Oct 5, 2007 1:33:22 GMT 1
you know i've been asking myself that very same question ,does something in the mind just snap just can't take anymore , or as the case of these two boys seek out revenge whatever the cost while reading the topic i asked myself a question...( am been totally honest here )..." what would make me want to kill someone "...answer if i was a parent of one those kid's who was hurt then i would want to hurt the perpetrator another parent may be more rational in saying let the courts deal with them Agreed, if anyone did wrong to any of my kids to that degree, I would be willing to go against the word of the law to be rid of the wrong doer. God forbid. me too poyks By all accounts Harris was on anti-depressants and his doctor had become concerned with the mood swings he suffered. He was prescribed anothere drug but it was just a different brand. The drug was found in his system at the autopsy and it's thought possible that that contributed to his state of mind rather than make him better as it should have. Klebold, however, was not on any drugs. It's thought that he may have just been dominated by Harris and wanted to be like him. On a docmentary I saw on You-tube, it was theorised that there was a 'perfect' storm' of events that led to them doing what they did. In other words, if any part of the lead up had turned out differently, the massacre would not have happened. They didn't have specific targets. They wanted to kill the school. And that meant anyone that got in their way. They planned to blow it up, but the charges they used didn't go off. oh gosh their there was a drug that had caused people to literally change overnight if i recall correctly there was a documentory about it on t.v. a few years ago the manufactures tried to duck out of it near enough to saying it wasn't the drug that caused the effects ( the name of it escapes me at the moment ) klebold may have hero worshipped harris or saw him as some kind of mentor by killing the school would they have been trying to kill the authority and structrue that goes within the school system and all that it stands for ? |
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Post by Scifishocks on Oct 6, 2007 1:37:54 GMT 1
The more I read about this, the weirder it gets.
Apparently some witnesses are adamant that there were at least three shooters (in one report, as many as six!) that day, yet only two were officially blamed. Members of the 'Trenchcoat Mafia' (a group of school outcasts, basically, who instantly and publicly distanced themselves from the two perps despite being friends with them) originally told investigators that they had knowledge of the attack before it happened, despite evidence from the perpetrators stating that they had kept this all amongst themselves.
Documents, autopsy reports and video surveillance tapes relating to the case have disappeared or been sealed, by court order, for twenty years and witnesses (students inside the school at the time) have said that they know more that they have said publicly, but stay tight lipped. Other students were taken into custody and eventually released. An older female student (and alleged member of the 'Trenchcoat Mafia') who admitted to illegally supplying the perps with some of the weapons used has not been charged. There are even reports that other attacks may have been planned, in other schools, for that day but, for whatever reason, did not take place.
Timings on some of the events don't match up. For example, the perps apparently killed themselves (even this is in question. Dylan Klebold's head wound according to some sources, indicates that someone else shot him. But his autopsy report is amongst the documents sealed so that's difficult to prove) a little over half hour after the attack began (time of death was placed at around 12.05pm), yet, according to witnesses, shots were still being fired at 1pm!
Also, it's alleged that the SWAT team sent to the scene did not sweep the building for two hours after the attack began.
Weirdest of all I think, news reporters originally on the scene saw vehicles with NATO painted on the side on site during the attack. NATO vehicles?!?
I know that some of the conflicting reports can be attributed to confusion, extreme stress or such things on the part of the witnesses. Or even good old fashioned conspiracy theories... but it does all seem very strange still. I'm not gullible but there are so many inconsitencies that it does make you think.
There is little doubt that we don't know (and may never) know the whole story.
What on Earth went on there?
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